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Mr. Top Hat
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Joined: 29 Aug 2004
Posts: 5818
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 Posted: Jun 17, 2007 10:19 pm Post subject: |
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kyle13, i understand what faith is, but deltarider tried to argue religion against science and thats just not something you can really do when one bases its beliefs on facts and the other bases its beliefs on faith. nobody will win this arguement.
deathbed conversion = heavy heavy sarcasm |
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JeffKnox
Backside 180
Joined: 09 Apr 2007
Posts: 2044
City: Jacksonville/Gainesville
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| Posted: Jun 17, 2007 10:21 pm Post subject: |
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deltarider, um wow... you wont respond or even acknowledge my post so you call me drunk... well the answer is no... and im not sure the reason you asked that question... was my grammer bad or something... or did you just not want to answer the questions?
Mr. Top Hat, thanks for the support... you rock
kyle13, your right... there is no evidence neither supporting or denying the existence of a god... reason says there is something but not what everyone thinks it to be... i think something is out there but i dont think it is the stereotypical vision of a god...
this is why i am a agnostic
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Jonah 1:12
Faceplant
Joined: 23 Jan 2007
Posts: 44
City: Cedar Park
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| Posted: Jun 18, 2007 12:06 am Post subject: |
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I agee with kyle13. It is not our job to convert you, however you posted and continue to argue with people about your beliefs on a thread called Who on here is Christian ? Are you searching for answers and willing to listen with an open mind and heart, or are you trying to discourage Christians and have them follow your own personal beliefs?
I am not Catholic, so if that is what you call mainstream Christianity I am not.
I am a Born Again Christian. |
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kyle13
Frontside 180
Joined: 15 Feb 2004
Posts: 498
City: Seminole Heights
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| Posted: Jun 18, 2007 1:23 am Post subject: |
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| JeffKnox wrote: |
if you want to debate about the bible a fun topic is the dinasaurs... when in the seven days the earth was created to when man was created were the dinasaurs alive? i mean it is proven that man didnt live with the dinasaurs and since the bible was written before we knew about the dinasaurs they mistakingly wrote that the earth was created in seven days... also with carbon dating we know the earth to be a few billion years old... if you go back all the generations to adam and eve (as told in teh bible) it makes the earth only a few thousand years.... (a few hundred thousand years if you want to be generous and really believe moses lived a couple hundred years old)... and the earliest man has been dated to be much older than that so that dosnt match up.... but anyway those are the easiest things to disprove in the bible...
btw my thoughts go alot faster than my fingers on the keyboard so i hope all that made sense and i didnt jump around any... |
I'll try and answer your questions from a christain standpoint.
when in the seven days the earth was created to when man was created were the dinasaurs alive?
The 6th day along with the other land animals and yes dinosaurs were alive at the same time as man since man was created the same day.
i mean it is proven that man didnt live with the dinasaurs and since the bible was written before we knew about the dinasaurs they mistakingly wrote that the earth was created in seven days
What is the proof that man did not live with dinosaurs? I'm guessing you'll say carbon dating and I'll get to that next.
The bible mentions these two animals that match the descriptions of dinosaurs closer to any other animals.
Behemoth - Job 40:15-24
Leviathan - Job chapter 41, Psalm 104:25,26 and Isaiah 27:1.
Also the word Tanniyn occurs around 28 time in the bible and translates to dragon.
Taken from http://www.christiancourier.com/articles/read/dinosaurs_and_the_bible
There is a growing body of evidence that dinosaurs and humans were contemporary. In 1970 newspapers reported the discovery of cave paintings in Zimbabwe. The paintings were made by bushmen who ruled that area from about 1500 B.C., until a couple of hundred years ago. Along with accurate representations of the elephant and the giraffe, is a painting of an Apatosaurus (brontosaurus). These art works have greatly puzzled scientists since bushmen are known to have painted from real life! (Bible-Science Newsletter, April 15, 1970, p. 2).
About seventy years ago, Dr. Samuel Hubbard, curator of archaeology in the Oakland (California) Museum, discovered dinosaur carvings on the cliff walls of the Hava Supai Canyon in Arizona. One remarkable carving resembles a Tyrannosaurus. Nearby, dinosaur tracks were preserved in the rock surface. (For a picture of this carving, see our book, {glossSub (“Courier Publications”,”The Mythology of Modern Geology”)}, 1990 edition, p. 31.)
also with carbon dating we know the earth to be a few billion years old...
One argument against carbon dating involves the consistency. I read that the dating instruments offer up very different results and if the result dosen't match the scientist ideas, the result are throw out and dismissed as an error. That isn't really debateworthy" facts" just what I know of the top of my head.
A funny story I heard from a creation scientist that taught one of my classes showed the inconsistency. Apparently one of her friends thought it would be funny to take the bone from his dog that was buried in the back yard for about 20 years to be carbon dated. They dated the bone millions of years old after serveral different tests. This dosen't prove anything I just thought it was funny.
I hate science (as a suject) so I have never really taken the time to fully understand carbon dating. If you want to, check out this article http://www.answersingenesis.org/docs2002/carbon_dating.asp . Carbon dating can be intelliently debated.
you go back all the generations to adam and eve (as told in teh bible) it makes the earth only a few thousand years....
The average "young earth" scientist believes the earth is somewhere between 6 - 10 thousand years old (usually a maximum 12 thou). And yes there is a lot of evidence out there to support it. I was fortunate enough to take a creation science a year before I went to highschool and took enviromental science. It's funny all of the things the highschool text book left out or covered up, while in my creation science class evolution was openly discussed. Basically young earth and old earth is widely debated topic, even among Christians. Recently I have noticed a good amount of people claiming that an old earth does match up with the Bible.
and the earliest man has been dated to be much older than that so that dosnt match up....
I didn't understand this, please explain.
but anyway those are the easiest things to disprove in the bible...
If these questions were unanswerable you could say they disproved the bible. I do understand that just because I answered them that dosen't mean what I said isn't debatable.
Last edited by kyle13 on Jun 18, 2007 1:31 am; edited 1 time in total |
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deltarider
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| Posted: Jun 18, 2007 1:31 am Post subject: |
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| Mr. Top Hat wrote: | | i dont know, nor do i care |
Then why did you ask? |
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deltarider
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| Posted: Jun 18, 2007 1:39 am Post subject: |
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| JeffKnox wrote: | | deltarider, im drunk right now |
That's why I asked.
kyle13, I think that are going to be an awesome Youth Pastor.
Well, I am going on a trip to Lake Shasta with my church, I'll be back in a week, I'll be worshipping God, wakeskating, teaching people how to wakeskate, and learning more about my Creator.
Love you all.
Delta. |
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nick
Island Rat
Joined: 13 Nov 2003
Posts: 14553
City: Honokowai
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| Posted: Jun 18, 2007 8:27 am Post subject: |
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| kyle13 wrote: | | macro-evoloution has been "proved" plausible in public school textbooks (which are about effective as using the mainstream media to keep up with political matters) |
I liked that 
I still would like to know if the one that should be cast overboard to make it glassy thinks that I am troubled by God's doings.
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liquidstunts
Backside 180
Joined: 05 Feb 2007
Posts: 852
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| Posted: Jun 18, 2007 9:31 am Post subject: |
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| deltarider wrote: |
kyle13, I think that are going to be an awesome Youth Pastor.
Well, I am going on a trip to Lake Shasta with my church, I'll be back in a week, I'll be worshipping God, wakeskating, teaching people how to wakeskate, and learning more about my Creator.
Love you all.
Delta. |
i agree. kyle, delta, i've been sitting back reading this thread watching yall take hold of this topic and really take a personal interest in it. very encouraging to me. i agree with you both and have thoroughly enjoyed reading this discussion.
kyle as far as the "young earth" vs. "old earth" debate. MANY christians (especially geologic engineers/scientists) believe the earth to be millions of years old. there is no "word specific" evidence to disprove this in the bible. those people believe in what is commonly know as the "gap theory". that is a "gap" of time between creation of the earth "formless and empty" genisis 1:2 and the creation of light and dark, earth and sky, land and sea........ and on. (6 "days" of creation.) the "gap theory" sees creation as not being in 6 literal 24hr days. It wasn't until vs 14 that God created the lights in the sky that marked the days, seasons, years...
but they view creation as having taken place over millions of years.
and then there's the "young earth" christians.... believing that creation took a literal 6 days. 6-24 hour days. resulting in the belief that the earth is between 6 & 10k years old.
my mom is a "young earth" believer, and my dad, as a geologist, is an "old earth" believer. AND WE GET ALONG FINE.
both are acceptable beliefs........... gtg |
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Mr. Top Hat
Dead
Joined: 29 Aug 2004
Posts: 5818
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| Posted: Jun 18, 2007 9:36 am Post subject: |
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| deltarider wrote: | | Mr. Top Hat wrote: | | i dont know, nor do i care |
Then why did you ask? |
that was a response to a question that somebody asked me. that question was also completely irrelevent to the question i asked you and i am still waiting for an answer from you. |
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Jonah 1:12
Faceplant
Joined: 23 Jan 2007
Posts: 44
City: Cedar Park
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| Posted: Jun 18, 2007 10:39 am Post subject: |
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che blanc wrote:
| Quote: | | I still would like to know if the one that should be cast overboard to make it glassy thinks that I am troubled by God's doings. |
I am glad to see you have been reading your Bible.
I hope nothing I have said has angered you. You never said my assumption was wrong or stated your beliefs. You have only disagreed with mine. This doesn't anger me, but only gives me hope that someday you will come back to God. |
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JeffKnox
Backside 180
Joined: 09 Apr 2007
Posts: 2044
City: Jacksonville/Gainesville
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| Posted: Jun 18, 2007 10:41 am Post subject: |
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deltarider, i was drunk on june 16th at 115 am as according to that post and then went on to say i would respond to your questions the following day which i did completely sober... and you still had yet to respond to my posts...
kyle13, thank you for the response... but there are many holes to that as well (although liquidstunts helped to clarify a bit... love ya man ) ... for one thing if the dinasaurs did live with humans than what killed off every single species of dinasaurs without killing humans? it has been well documented that not only did dinasaurs not live with humans but they lived thousands of years apart (from the time dinasaurs died and humans began life)... and a few paintings on walls just cant throw a wrench into that...
as for carbon dating... i have done much research on this and the way it works is giving you a percent error if you will... some materials that are carbon dated tend to have a higer percent error than others... and this percent error can sometimes be anywhere from decades to hundreds of years... but when dating back to millions of years ago, plus or minus a few hundred years is not really a big difference thus making the dating relatively accurate... this is why you cant date your dogs bones , it just hasnt decomposed enough...
as for the theory of young earth... the only time i have heard this debate is from christians who are trying to match up the bible generations with the age of the earth... it has never stood up in a scientific field... (to my knowledge)...
i have one more question however... mostly to ian... if your not religious and you are just having a relationship with god... then why do you defend the bible so much and take alot of what it says for fact b/c it is made by man not god... i mean i could see you having a great relationship with god without believeing in the bible... in fact with all the things that i see in the bible i think it would be easier and more fullfilling to take the bible as a guidline and not divine order... just wondering 
btw today is my bday... i think ian should drive is ass down here so we can party it uup  
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Slapdown
Kickflip
Joined: 20 Apr 2005
Posts: 4240
City: Austin
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| Posted: Jun 18, 2007 10:46 am Post subject: |
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JeffKnox,
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kyle13
Frontside 180
Joined: 15 Feb 2004
Posts: 498
City: Seminole Heights
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| Posted: Jun 18, 2007 10:53 am Post subject: |
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deltarider, Thank you. Your church trip sounds like it will be nothing short of epic. I wish I got to wakeskate at the church camp I'm counseling at next week, but hey, and least we got the blob (huge airbag used in the movie Heavy Weights used to propel people high into the air landing in the water).
che blanc, I've been doing a little bit of research on the Council of Nicea. Very interesting.
liquidstunts, honestly I'm not really sure where I stand on the young earth old earth debate. I think I need to do more personal research before I can confidently support oneo or the other. It must be awesome having that diversity in your family, you must know alot about each side of the debate.
Last edited by kyle13 on Jun 18, 2007 11:14 am; edited 1 time in total |
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liquidstunts
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Joined: 05 Feb 2007
Posts: 852
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| Posted: Jun 18, 2007 11:10 am Post subject: |
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| JeffKnox wrote: | (although liquidstunts helped to clarify a bit... love ya man )
btw today is my bday... i think ian should drive is ass down here so we can party it uup |
love you too.... I SHOULD, I WANT TOOO. i might.
my grandma just passed away so i gotta migrate south for the funeral.... i'll see if a plane ticket can get me routed thru jax for same price... if so.. 
p.s. happy birthday jeff |
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kyle13
Frontside 180
Joined: 15 Feb 2004
Posts: 498
City: Seminole Heights
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| Posted: Jun 18, 2007 11:17 am Post subject: |
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JeffKnox, Happy Birthday
Thanks for the mature discussion without name calling and rediculous assumptions. I appreciate it. I'll try to give a little response after I get home from work tonight. Enjoy your birthdy bro. |
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nick
Island Rat
Joined: 13 Nov 2003
Posts: 14553
City: Honokowai
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| Posted: Jun 18, 2007 11:27 am Post subject: |
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Jonah 1:12, No dude, I'm not angry at all. I love this firefight of ideas that in reality is only helping us understand what other people believe and how they see the world, and maybe more importantly, we can express our own beliefs in words to help US understand ourselves more! That's what this is about. I listen to Christian music about as much as any other kind, you know why? Because there is no other music that is as passionate and goes all the way to the core of the people singing it. The only wasted human being is the one that lives without love or passion. We're to live, learn, and love, and we're all doing just that in this thread. And I did dispute what you said, I think I just got fanatical with the wording   
| che blanc wrote: | | ...you think God hurt me. I serve no such grudge. I believe that the mark of the depth of your ignorance is your belief in injustice and tragedy. |
I love all you guys.
Except Cartman.
`nt
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nick
Island Rat
Joined: 13 Nov 2003
Posts: 14553
City: Honokowai
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| Posted: Jun 18, 2007 11:27 am Post subject: |
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Happy Birthday Jeff
(Mine's in 3 days )
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liquidstunts
Backside 180
Joined: 05 Feb 2007
Posts: 852
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| Posted: Jun 18, 2007 11:48 am Post subject: |
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JeffKnox, jeff, i believe the bible to be truth. the truth of the word of God. in a secular sense i'll say it like this.
I, Ian McQueen, believe the bible to be true because it is a reliable collection of historical documents written by eyewitnesses, within the lifetime of other eyewitnesses, attesting to SUPERNATURAL not superhuman events, that took place in fulfillment of SPECIFIC not general prophecies.
and because i choose to believe the bible, and it claims to be the inspired word of God, i must, therefore choose to believe that also.
p.s. there have been over 23,000 archaeological digs based simply on the bible, and not a single one has proven the bible wrong.
that, jeff, is why i fiercly defend the bible and it's truth. and that is also why i read the bible in my RELATIONSHIP with God, it's his love letter and instruction manual to me.  it is thru time in the word that i draw my strength. my "sword of the spirit which is the word of God" |
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liquidstunts
Backside 180
Joined: 05 Feb 2007
Posts: 852
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| Posted: Jun 18, 2007 11:51 am Post subject: |
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| che blanc, well happy birthday to you too sir. if i can actually make it down to celebrate with jeff you otta come up too.... and we can all party it up |
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JeffKnox
Backside 180
Joined: 09 Apr 2007
Posts: 2044
City: Jacksonville/Gainesville
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| Posted: Jun 18, 2007 2:54 pm Post subject: |
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thanks guys for the happy bday... i just got back from a wakeskate sesh with my brothers and i couldnt have asked for better water... looks like god or jesus or the force or science whatever you prefer blessed me with no wind 
ian i would love to have you down but make sure you call so i dont make prier arrangements... and nick you know my family loves you and you are always welcome to hang out with us and get a few free pulls... if anyone wants to join me just give me a hollah...
ill resume my debate on this topic after my bday... i dont really feel like goin into it at this point...
ps... happy early bday nick!
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