Is this a w2w kickflip?

SEAMAN · Frontside 180 Joined: 14 Sep 2003 Posts: 388 City: Atlanta

http://www.wakeskating.com/showarticle.php?a=33

-=AlexXx=- · Posted: Aug 30, 2013 9:11 pm Post subject:

why not?

Rootar · Posted: Aug 30, 2013 10:28 pm Post subject:

im also not sure what is in question

electricsnow · cassette Joined: 14 Sep 2003 Posts: 10756 City: Jefferton

I voted yes, even though the standards have changed. It's still radical, given the time and where things were at.

deepcove · Posted: Aug 31, 2013 10:40 pm Post subject:

w2w..........check!
Kickflip......check!

Rolling Eyes

SEAMAN · Frontside 180 Joined: 14 Sep 2003 Posts: 388 City: Atlanta

I ran across this
http://www.wakeboardingmag.com/olgallery/1000361242/1000361273/6

and I remembered this
http://www.alliancewake.com/skate/where-are-they-now-daniel-lovett/

Trying to understand why everything is so skewed?

electricsnow · cassette Joined: 14 Sep 2003 Posts: 10756 City: Jefferton

I think it's tricky. I think you and daniel were pretty realistic about that wake to wake kickflip--recognizing that there's a lot of room for growth or to make it better, but you have to start small and work your way up. Again, add in the state of wakeskating at the time, and to do a kickflip in itself was a big deal. Daniel's progression at the time was pretty radical, along with everything you all were doing.

The transworld article wording is touchy because of the implication (and the alliance article kind of supports that, though i don't agree with it). But for sure, aaron raised the bar with his wake to wake flip, it was a hammer in sfumato, it's certainly memorable and is still in line with how they're currently done.

I think there's also some friendship bias too. You're sticking up for your friend and what you were a part of, and ben greenwood is heaping deserving praise on reed. Or so i feel.

Instead of giving him credit for the first "legit" wake to wake flip, he could have gotten sole credit for the first frontside bluntslides, back tails, or something like that.

SEAMAN · Frontside 180 Joined: 14 Sep 2003 Posts: 388 City: Atlanta

Well, you are right, its definitely about a friendship thing, but I don't see how it is biased. Which is why I created the poll and pose the question, is it legit? What would make it legit, at 75 ft?

The Alliance article is just wrong as it was done behind a mastercraft wakeboard boat, not the sweetwater. And as I recall Daniel only did it at 65 because thats what the person before him was riding, it wasn't a conscious thing to go slower or shorter. Did he want to do it much bigger, with a grab, caught and tweaked, of course. But he was just trying to land one for the first time which happened to be the first done.

I get the whole thing, the stigma behind the pontoon boat, etc, but its not about the firsts. It was a concept that you don't need a wakeboard boat to wakeskate, to learn stuff, the start of flip tricks, consistency, inside-out, which lead to the w2w kickflip.

electricsnow · cassette Joined: 14 Sep 2003 Posts: 10756 City: Jefferton

Don't take the bias thing the wrong way. Nobody else but you brought this topic up, and you have a part in this aspect of history. Similarly, reed and ben are really good friends. When you have connections like that, you feel strongly about the person you're trying to represent.

And i agree the word "legit" isn't the best way to word it. It's like kickflipping metrowest. Danny did it first, but gore's was cleaner. Does that mean danny's doesn't count? absolutely not, but gore stepped it up a notch.

I don't think there's a negative stigma regarding the pontoon boat. But rope length and trick size are common ways to "measure" a wake trick. I guess to play the devil's advocate, if daniel wanted to grab it, and wanted to do it better, he had the option to only publicize the move once he landed it the way he wanted it. Today, i feel it's fair to say that that is the standard. I'm sure back then, some dudes felt that way also, and that's why there was some pushback regarding "legitimacy."

SEAMAN · Frontside 180 Joined: 14 Sep 2003 Posts: 388 City: Atlanta

The biased thing doesn't make sense to me. Im not defending him. Aaron Reed's kickflip in Sfumato was the most amazing w2w kickflip ever done in my opinion, taking into consideration the time frame with everything else. But Daniel's kickflip was a w2w kickflip, done well before anyone else(well unless josh steele has that video lying around...), so I don't understand how that can be argued?

Electricsnow, thats pretty unfair to say. That time period wasn't about publicizing how you wanted it done. It was about being tired of not seeing wakeskating take the next leap to be like skateboarding.

I wish my wakelounge arguments were still preserved, that would show the mentality then. The videos we put out were about the fact that Thomas did two kickflips in four years and people thought it impossible. Daniel, Kenny, and the pontoon boat changed that. We were not producing full length videos, just sharing to the wake community that with minimal gas and expense you could enjoy wakeskating, and even make it more like skateboarding.

Linear is still my top three favorite wake videos of all time, hands down. But your argument of waiting for it to look good is killed on that video. I think Tim's reentry kickflip is amazing, but the fact is it was a flip trick, only one of four people to land one then, so it went in the video.

I completely understand how things got turned on Daniel, but which came first the chicken or the egg?

senza wake · Backside 180 Joined: 07 Jun 2011 Posts: 600 City: SLC

seems wack to use "legit" the way ben g did. i feel like he emphasized it, and that subsequently would imply daniels was not legit. he should have worded that differently. poor choice of words, but just the same, both riders have made an impact for sure!

electricsnow · cassette Joined: 14 Sep 2003 Posts: 10756 City: Jefferton

Devil's advocate--just presenting an alternative idea, and i don't think it's an unfair comment because one person can help change a standard. And i don't think that ideology was too far off for some. But you keep questioning some people's responses, wondering why they won't give daniel credit, and you also recognize there was room for improvement or aspirations for something better.

And maybe that's part of it. I'm not saying everything was perfect, but the cassette dudes (minus tim, though i still really dig him) stand out to me as the guys who had higher expectations for style and skate influence. And then you have sfumato.

And there's my bias. It does exist...

Do you know who wouldn't recognize the value of daniel's move? And do you have any comparissons to make between their riding and footage vs. Daniel's?

I'm not saying i don't value daniel's move or progression. I never criticized the sweetwater--i've actually been one of the biggest fans of that time and what you guys did. For wherever your head is at with this, i already said it IS a wake to wake kickflip. Nobody on here is even arguing that fact in general. You're upset about something and voicing in a place where 98% of the people on here weren't around for it, and have no idea about the climate of wakeskating at the time.